Diesel: Thick headed Americans

Deutsch · 04-01-2008, 06:47 PM

I've read in several places over the past week how diesel is pretty much useless because diesel powered cars cost more and diesel costs more than gas. Half brains, that's not the point!!! 1) Diesel powered cars require fewer trips to the pump and 2) gas will continue to go up and you're kidding yourself if you think $4/gallon is it. I have no doubt with the emerging market in play that gas stateside will one day rise to what are European levels today. Several years will go by fast. Something also needs to be done with American refineries churning out more diesel for Europe than for home in order to bring down the cost. In the grand scheme of things diesel is a major party of the energy solution; the less petrol we use as the world the better off all of us are. Ditto for our future.

Gullwing · 04-01-2008, 08:57 PM

Say a diesel powered car is $5K more then the gas version. The diesel gets 35MPG and the gas gets 24MPG, with diesel costing $4.20 and gas at $4.05. How much do you have to drive to make the diesel more cost efficient.

I have not problem with diesels and would gladly drive one, but some people would look at the numbers and be turned off. I would use the above argument to go against hybrids.

GBOY · 04-02-2008, 10:17 AM

^Point well taken. Here's a story...

After wining about my new '$100K Mercedes' for 2 months, i finally decided to take my boss to my Mercedes Dealer (last December) so he could buy one at a great price and get off my back.
After test driving many and loving the E-Class, he ended up buying a good old 'American' Toyota Avalon because of ... ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?....
The Mercedes uses Premium Gasoline and the Toyota takes regular. Savings of about a whopping $500 per year ONLY.
(I told him i would pay the $2 a week difference )

That's how some think in this country believe it or not.

Osnabrueck · 04-02-2008, 02:39 PM

Here's the problem Deutsch. When we talk about alternative fuel sources, we typically think about how market conditions and infrastructure demands are right now. What we tend not to do is pencil-out what the ramifications are if an alternative fuel is adpoted en masse.

Case in pont - E85. Seems like a pretty innocuous fuel source when only a tiny slice of the world's vehicles are making use of it. However, now that E85 production is ramping up to meet surging demand, all sorts of negative side-effects are starting to surface - Namely food shortages, increased produce costs, deforestation and higher prices for E85.

As for Diesel. It looked attractive a year ago, and still looks relatively attractive for anybody willing to pencil out the efficiency table math. However, if Americans begin to adopt Diesels as exciting new product from VW, BMW and others become available, the value part of the equation will slowly evaporate as demand will cause prices to climb upwards. Its really a Catch 22.

Asking refineries to increase or change output for the good of humanity is futile. The petrochemical complex is going to do whatever is good for them, and that means selling their product at market price. And so long as demand is increasing, that price will go up. We don't get a break just because we say "Awwww c'mon."

Gullwing · 04-02-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBOY

^Point well taken. Here's a story...

After wining about my new '$100K Mercedes' for 2 months, i finally decided to take my boss to my Mercedes Dealer (last December) so he could buy one at a great price and get off my back.
After test driving many and loving the E-Class, he ended up buying a good old 'American' Toyota Avalon because of ... ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?....
The Mercedes uses Premium Gasoline and the Toyota takes regular. Savings of about a whopping $500 per year ONLY.
(I told him i would pay the $2 a week difference )

That's how some think in this country believe it or not.

We didn't tell my dad that my 190E takes premium until we had it for a year +, or that my mom's ML takes premium until after she bought it or that his Smart takes premium fuel until after we optioned it out.

Why buy a great car that take premium when you can get a crappy one that takes regular

Osnabrueck · 04-02-2008, 05:18 PM

The Premium/Regular argument has never been more irrelevant. While petrol prices climb, the cost differene between blends has remained the same.

So, back when US gas was at about $1.10 a gallon, $1.32 for premium was a legitimate budget consideration. But now, with regular and premium at about $3.50 and $3.70 respectively, the point seems moot. Yes, its the same 20 cent difference, but the overall cost on a gallon of gas is absolutely negligible.

One would do much better to mind how much they drive and how they drive rather than worry about what kind of gas their car is sipping.

Deutsch · 04-02-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osnabrueck

Here's the problem Deutsch. When we talk about alternative fuel sources, we typically think about how market conditions and infrastructure demands are right now. What we tend not to do is pencil-out what the ramifications are if an alternative fuel is adpoted en masse.

Case in pont - E85. Seems like a pretty innocuous fuel source when only a tiny slice of the world's vehicles are making use of it. However, now that E85 production is ramping up to meet surging demand, all sorts of negative side-effects are starting to surface - Namely food shortages, increased produce costs, deforestation and higher prices for E85.

As for Diesel. It looked attractive a year ago, and still looks relatively attractive for anybody willing to pencil out the efficiency table math. However, if Americans begin to adopt Diesels as exciting new product from VW, BMW and others become available, the value part of the equation will slowly evaporate as demand will cause prices to climb upwards. Its really a Catch 22.

Asking refineries to increase or change output for the good of humanity is futile. The petrochemical complex is going to do whatever is good for them, and that means selling their product at market price. And so long as demand is increasing, that price will go up. We don't get a break just because we say "Awwww c'mon."

I hear what you're saying, but seeing how this changes the fact that you still get better efficiency from diesel and that gas will only be $4/gallon temporarily doesn't change.

Merc1 · 04-02-2008, 07:55 PM

There are small group of Benz owners in MBWorld that are constantly asking what the damage is if they use regular grade gasoline, all to save a few bucks. I don't get a kick out of filling up at $55 bucks each time for premium gas for my mere CLK430, but I don't want to know what engine trouble would cost on my car either a few years from now.

I think Mercedes and BMW are really in the right place with diesels here now. You want performance and efficiency go for one of the BMW diesels, you want efficiency and comfort or towing (GL/ML) then you go for a Benz. By this time next year we'll really know if America has accepted diesels on a large scale. I'm particularly interested in seeing how BMW markets their diesels. The 335d could be part of a brilliant marketing campaign, I'm looking for it to be a bit hit...if marketed right. Performance + efficiency = the ultimate, guiltless, efficient, driving machine...or something like that. This can work.

M

JadeVetti · 04-05-2008, 07:50 PM

Interesting.

So, how many people who have luxury cars are really abiding by the rules and buying premium gas religiously?

How many people do not care, since they lease their cars and won't have to deal with any "troubles" in 3 years?

What is the key difference b/w the two, so long as prices continue to rise and both can and will move your car from point A to point B?

I can see why a diesel charged car MUST have diesel, but I cannot say the same for luxury cars and premium gas. In the beginning, I take great care, but towards the end of a lease or after a year, I don't care so much.

Every visit to the gas station becomes a big Whatever in my mind.

dxb335d · 04-06-2008, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullwing

Say a diesel powered car is $5K more then the gas version. The diesel gets 35MPG and the gas gets 24MPG, with diesel costing $4.20 and gas at $4.05. How much do you have to drive to make the diesel more cost efficient.

I have not problem with diesels and would gladly drive one, but some people would look at the numbers and be turned off. I would use the above argument to go against hybrids.

and a re-mapped 335d will be quicker than an e46 M3 and return 40mpg

Long live the BMW diesel!